137: Panicking About Protein? Dietitian Brenda Davis Breaks Down the Hype (And Confirms You Can Get All You Need from Plants)
This episode is a tad sweary.
Show notes:
In this episode, I sit down with the amazing Brenda Davis, RD (registered dietitian) and co-author of Plant-Powered Protein. Brenda is one of the most respected voices in the plant-based world, and this convo is packed with insights that will change the way you think about protein.
We talk about how much protein you really need (spoiler: it’s not as much as diet culture tells you), what “complete protein” means, and why fiber is a crucial part of the conversation.
We also cover how protein needs change with age, and Brenda shares practical tips for older adults, postmenopausal women, athletes, and anyone navigating allergies or digestive issues.
Let’s get into it!
Helpful links:
- Plant Powered Protein by Brenda Davis RD
- BrendaDavisRD.com
- Try Clean Food Dirty Girl Meal Plan Club – Free for 10 Days
- Check out Drop It Club: Plant-Powered Weight Loss
About Brenda Davis RD
Brenda is one of the world’s leading authorities on plant-based nutrition. A registered dietitian and internationally recognized speaker, Brenda has authored and co-authored 12 books, including Becoming Vegan, Plant-Powered Protein, and Kick Diabetes Essentials. Her work has influenced dietary guidelines and public health policies around the world.
She has presented at nutrition conferences in over 20 countries, served as lead dietitian for diabetes intervention projects, and consulted for health organizations promoting plant-based living. Brenda combines scientific rigor with a compassionate approach, helping people transition to healthier, more sustainable diets without fear or confusion.
Follow Brenda on Facebook, Instagram @brendadavisrd and visit brendadavisrd.com for more. Check out the Work of Brenda Davis Facebook Group.
Transcript (auto-generated, may have errors)
Molly (00:01.432)
Hey there and thanks for listening to this episode of the Clean Food Dirty Girl podcast. I’m really, really, really excited today because we have a very special guest. We have Brenda Davis who is a registered dietician. She has written many books. I have talked with her before on the podcast and for our YouTube channel about soy. was a great conversation. And she has this book out, Plant-Powered.
Protein which caught my eye and this is a fabulous resource. So we’re gonna dive into protein today Brenda Thank you for joining me on the podcast
Brenda Davis (00:38.541)
well I’m so happy to be with you again Molly. Thanks so much for having me.
Molly (00:43.574)
Always a pleasure to talk with you. You’re so knowledgeable about nutrition and plant-based nutrition. And so I really wanted to have a conversation specifically about protein because it’s been, you know, it’s an important topic and it comes up a lot. And I’ve been seeing some variations on what is being recommended out there. And I wanted to talk with somebody who is an expert. I wanted to get right to the source and…
talk with you and ask questions and also our community has a bunch of questions that I’m gonna ask on their behalf as well. So can we just start with like a very brief interview or interview, a brief introduction just about protein and at this point, it seems like it’s much more widely accepted that you can get protein from plants or you can get protein from animals. Like it’s okay. Like if you’re gonna be plant-based, like that’s…
It’s not a problem. You don’t have to eat meat to get protein. But I know that that wasn’t always the case, right? There used to be a much bigger debate about that. So can you just start with a little introduction about protein and plant-based protein?
Brenda Davis (01:52.242)
Absolutely. So protein is one of the three key macronutrients and it is a really important macronutrient. And so for so many years, people believed that in order to get
enough high quality protein, you had to eat animal products. And, you know, we really judged the quality of protein on the amino acid profile of the protein, the essential amino acid profile relative to human needs and the digestibility of the protein. But we didn’t take into account and I think this is a really important point.
the impact of protein on disease risk. We didn’t take into account the impact of various protein sources on
the environment. So we left out a lot in our definition of protein quality and if we factor in those points it gives us a little broader view of protein quality and so to me protein quality is about essential amino acids, is about digestibility, but it is also about what protein source will best protect
human health in the long term and work best for you know all life on this planet and so I think plant protein has risen in terms of our views about protein sources and we can absolutely meet our protein needs on a plant-based diet and that’s you know not
Brenda Davis (03:43.95)
not I think debatable anymore. And you know, we used to even say you need to combine grains with legumes or different types of protein sources to ensure that we receive all of these sexual amino acids. And we now know that we don’t need to do that if we eat a variety of foods over the course of the day, and we get enough calories.
we’re going to get a reasonable variety of all of the essential amino acids. Every single plant food has all nine essential amino acids. Plants are essentially where they come from. So it doesn’t make any sense to think we can’t get them from plants. Of course we can get them from plants. that, you know, and the other thing I should say is protein has probably become one of the most polarized topics
within the plant-based nutrition space. We have used contrasting from, you know,
you know, that we need to be eating a lot more protein, to, you know, protein is never an issue as long as we meet our caloric requirements, to we should be eating low amounts of protein for longevity. So it’s, we’re kind of all over the place and consumers are understandably a little bit confused.
Molly (05:09.995)
Right. Okay. So I really love that you brought that into the conversation and saying, well, when we talk about the quality of protein, let’s look at it as a more holistic view and like the bigger picture and what’s going to be best for humans over the long term. So I think that adding in those additional kind of qualifiers is a really good way to decide, okay, well, what is, you know, the most quality protein that I could have when you factor in all the rest of that stuff. So I think that that’s really
really a wonderful point to make. And as far as the polarizing, know, effective protein, you’re right. And I see it even within our own community. And I think that it leaves people pretty confused because it is a really important nutrient. It’s one of the macronutrients, like you said. And because it is so important, people want to make sure that, you know, I’m getting enough, but not too much, but, you know, they want to be protected and they want to do what’s going to be best for them.
And so I kind of, so you, you we can get enough, we can get protein from plants. I always tell people I’ve never eaten meat my whole life. So, you know, if we couldn’t get enough protein from, you know, without eating meat, I would be in serious trouble. I’m gonna be 45 this year and I’m doing well. So I like that you said it’s no longer really debatable. Like we can get it from plants, it’s okay.
Brenda Davis (06:27.535)
You
Brenda Davis (06:32.651)
Absolutely and Molly, you know, I just have to add.
I’ve been doing, I haven’t been doing it my whole life like you, but I’m 66 years old and I’ve been doing it for about 36 years, I would say, and probably 40 years, mostly plant-based. so I, you know, I’m one of the strongest people in my fitness classes. I can still do a lot of pushups. I have no problem with muscle wasting. So I absolutely,
It is possible and many people do very well, even bodybuilders can manage very well on a completely plant-based diet, like we see in the game changers for example.
Molly (07:22.893)
Yes, yeah, and there’s a lot of plant-based bodybuilders out there actually. I was looking at that because I would like to have a vegan bodybuilder on the show. So I’m looking for somebody who will come on and I was like, actually there are quite a lot of them out there and wow, they are impressive. yeah, and athletes in general. I think, you know, I love this. So I want to talk about recommendations because I think that that’s…
Brenda Davis (07:27.449)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (07:37.051)
lot.
Molly (07:49.398)
the science of protein and all of that can be very interesting. But I think where the rubber kind of meets the road is people want to say, okay, well, how much should I be getting? And so I know that in this book, this plant powered protein book is really good. It’s really like digestible information. It’s not too much information. It’s presented in a way that’s really clear. They have little charts with.
Brenda Davis (07:57.392)
Yes.
Molly (08:11.755)
you know, how much protein plants have, and you have very clear recommendations in here. So anybody who’s curious about this, I highly recommend getting a copy of this. Yeah, it’s a beautiful book and it has some really yummy looking recipes as well.
Brenda Davis (08:20.127)
thank you.
Brenda Davis (08:25.131)
And I should say about the recipes, we had five, I think five testers and they were determined that every recipe would get five stars across the board before it made the book. So the recipes are really good.
Molly (08:37.729)
Very important. Nice. Yes. Well, I know that our audience will appreciate that because we’d love to eat and we love good food. So I want to talk about recommendations. So first, and I wrote down some kind of, if we could just go through some of the most common demographics and kind of you tell me, okay, well, one thing I want to say before we start this is I learned something from your book.
Brenda Davis (08:43.301)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (09:01.029)
Yes.
Molly (09:06.879)
and I did not know when you’re talking about the digestibility of protein that in plant-based eaters who eat, most whole food plant-based eaters eat a lot of fiber. so plant-based eaters actually, it’s recommended that they eat a little bit more protein to compensate for all of the fiber and some of the protein not being absorbed because it’s going out with the fiber. Can you touch on that a little bit?
Brenda Davis (09:33.074)
Absolutely. So generally, when a food is high in fiber, some of the protein will be excreted. It’ll go right through the gut, right through the intestinal tract and be excreted in the stool. And so we lose a little bit of protein when we have a lot of fiber. This is not necessarily a bad thing, but
If your protein intake is just kind of barely meeting recommended levels, then you might want to boost your protein intake by, you know, 10 % or 15 % or something like that. Most people get significantly more than the recommended than the RDA, and they really don’t have to worry about that. You don’t have to worry about it. Also, if you’re eating enough high protein,
lower fiber foods, for example soy milk, tofu, peanut butter, veggie meats, know the seitan, these kinds of foods are lower in fiber, very high in protein, so if they’re part of the mix you really don’t need to adjust. Most adults don’t need to adjust. For young children who tend to
you know, have little tiny stomachs and they have fairly low protein requirements. So for example, a toddler might need about 13 grams of protein a day based on the RDA of 1.05 grams per kilogram of body weight. So at that small intake of protein, which you can get from, you know, two cups of soy milk or a, you know, one serving of
tofu, we might want to add a little bit on to their, you know, to maybe make it 15 or 16 grams instead of 13 for example. But there was a study called, it’s called VETCHI and there were two sets of cohorts, the VETCHI toddler study and the VETCHI youth study.
Molly (11:35.692)
Yeah.
Brenda Davis (11:46.266)
that showed in toddlers, the average toddler, whether omnivorous, lacto, ovo, vegetarian or vegan gets over double the RDA for protein. generally it’s not a huge issue. So if you’re barely meeting protein intake and you’re eating a ton of fiber, then yes, it makes sense, especially if you’re not eating very many lower
Molly (11:57.485)
great.
Brenda Davis (12:15.995)
fiber, higher protein foods to add a little bit of padding and extra 10%, which is not a lot.
Molly (12:22.111)
Right. Yeah. that’s fairly, I mean, that’s easy to do because really all plant foods have a certain amount of protein, which is another reason why eating a wide range of whole plant foods is really important because you can get like, you know, two grams here, three grams there, one gram here. It all, it all adds up quickly, especially if you’re eating, you know, big, beautiful salads with grains and beans and veggies. So it’s not, if you’re trying to pad a little bit, it doesn’t, it’s not going to take that many more calories, especially if it’s coming from
Brenda Davis (12:33.531)
Yes.
Molly (12:51.853)
plans, right?
Brenda Davis (12:53.035)
No, no, not at all. You’d be surprised how easy it is to get protein from, you know, 50 grams a day to 60 or 70. It’s really very simple.
Molly (13:02.315)
Right? Yes, and I want to talk about that in a little bit, like your little easy protein booster. So we’re going to get to that. So let’s talk about the RDA. So that’s the Recommended Daily Allowance, that is set by the Food and Drug Administration. Is that who sets the RDA? Institute of Medicine. Okay.
Brenda Davis (13:10.233)
Yes. Okay.
Brenda Davis (13:22.345)
the Institute of Medicine. yeah, and so it’s set at 0.8 grams per kilogram body weight. And, you know, at that level is, is very reasonable for people who are eating a good number of calories. Okay.
Molly (13:45.39)
Okay, so that’s 0.8 grams per kilogram of body weight. Right, okay, so I’m gonna give a little example so people can get into reference. So I weigh 135 pounds, so that would be 61 kilograms. So for me, 0.8 would be like 48.8 grams of protein a day.
Brenda Davis (13:49.423)
Yeah, and a kilogram is 2.2 pounds for those that are.
Brenda Davis (14:02.566)
Yeah.
Brenda Davis (14:06.321)
But yeah, that’s what I was going to say. It’s about 50 grams of protein. So that’s kind of where you would shoot for if you’re eating a lot of calories. Now, if you’re an active individual who is, you know, moderate in their caloric intake, you might want to aim closer to one gram per kilogram body weight. If you’re an older adult.
So you’re 60 plus like me, you actually digest protein less efficiently. And you may want to add, this, you know, the consensus is building around how much protein older adults actually need. But the consensus is building that it’s probably somewhere in the neighborhood of one to 1.2 grams.
per kilogram body weight that would be ideal. Now, if you have some sort of issue, sarcopenia, something like that, fragility, you may want to boost that a little further to get closer to the 1.4 to 1.6, for example.
Molly (15:25.921)
And that would be like, if you are experiencing muscle decline, that’s not the right word for it, but.
Brenda Davis (15:31.841)
Yes. Yeah, no, it’s it’s fine description that your muscle loss, basically, and that increases your risk for falls and all sorts of, you know, issues of aging.
Molly (15:38.935)
Okay.
Molly (15:49.151)
Okay, so that would, so one point, you said 1.4 at the higher end of that.
Brenda Davis (15:54.514)
Or one, probably 1.6 at the higher end? Yeah.
Molly (15:58.414)
1.6. Okay, so that would be if somebody weighed 135 pounds 61 kilograms that would be like 97.6 grams. Okay.
Brenda Davis (16:05.711)
Yeah, which is a lot and especially for an older senior woman.
you know that’s not easy to achieve without you know some sort of more concentrated protein source and so but that’s not your average senior that is someone who’s struggling or who’s recovering from an injury or something like that and requires more protein to build or rebuild body tissue.
Molly (16:27.34)
Right.
Molly (16:35.149)
Okay, so if we have somebody who’s over 65 and they are not experiencing those particular circumstances, it would be, is it one, did you say? 1.2, okay. Okay.
Brenda Davis (16:46.609)
one to 1.2 and I like to shoot for 1.2. It just is a little bit of a cushion for the lower digestibility especially as we age we tend to eat fewer calories so that would help to compensate for that as well.
Molly (17:04.204)
Great.
Molly (17:07.765)
Okay, so that’s like 73 grams a day. Okay, so these recommendations, are there any differences between the recommendations for men and the recommendations from women? I mean, not just with the senior population, but yeah.
Brenda Davis (17:21.859)
Okay, before I forget, it just occurred to me that I didn’t mention your body weight that you’re calculating your protein needs based on is actually your healthy body weight. So let’s say you weighed 75 kilos, but your healthy weight is 60 kilos. Your protein requirement is based on 60 kilos, not 75.
Molly (17:49.774)
Okay, this is very helpful. Okay, so then if I weighed 135 pounds, let’s just say, and for my frame, if I was like, you know, very short, and that was like too much, then I would aim for like a healthy weight for my frame, whatever that would be, and not actually calculate from my current weight.
Brenda Davis (18:10.245)
That’s right.
That is exactly right. So for example, if you were trying to think of, what is my healthy weight? I weigh 150 pounds. What should I weigh? Think about the weight. If you were ever at a healthy weight, think about the weight that you felt the best at. Maybe, you your college weight or whatever. And that would be the weight that you would be calculating your protein needs based
Molly (18:34.477)
Mm.
Brenda Davis (18:43.155)
I mean you could use BMI if you’ve never been at a healthy weight and to calculate what a reasonable protein intake is for you. It is not based on actual body weight if you’re overweight. It’s based on healthy body weight.
Molly (18:43.18)
Okay.
Molly (18:47.668)
Mm-hmm, okay.
Molly (18:53.355)
and
Raid.
And if you’re underweight as well, would imagine you would base it on a healthy weight as well. Right.
Brenda Davis (19:05.218)
Absolutely. And because if you’re underweight, you’re trying to gain muscle mass, you may want to go a little bit higher because of that as well.
Molly (19:16.875)
Right, that makes sense. Well, I’ve always heard health, know, it, yeah, that’s a really good distinction because I think if you’re calculating, you know, if you’re 50 pounds or 100 pounds overweight and you’re calculating from that number, that’s going to be way too much than you actually need then.
Brenda Davis (19:33.131)
exactly. Way more than what you actually need.
Molly (19:34.709)
Uh-huh, right. Okay, so that’s a great, great distinction. I think that that alone is gonna be very helpful for people. And then as far as, you you mentioned BMI, what do you think is, do you go with just like the, what is the healthy average BMI that you would like to see?
Brenda Davis (19:52.402)
Well, a healthy BMI is considered anything between 18.5 and 24.9. Now, there are lot of caveats because, for example, a muscular athletic man or bodybuilder
will have a BMI well over 25 and still have an extremely low body fat so they’re not overweight. So this is useless for people that are muscular athletes. It’s also to me not great that it doesn’t distinguish men from women because men tend to have more muscle, they tend to have heavier bones and so what is a healthy BMI for a man
Molly (20:13.741)
Mm-hmm.
Molly (20:23.373)
Great. Okay.
Molly (20:35.821)
You
Brenda Davis (20:38.383)
will generally be a little bit higher than what it would be for a woman.
By the same token, a person that is small framed like an Asian person will be overweight at a lower BMI than a person with a larger body frame. And so for many Asians, you’re looking at, you know, the 18.5 to maybe 23 as a healthy BMI. But of course, not every Asian person is
Molly (21:09.814)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (21:13.999)
same there will be some with bigger bones some with smaller bones but generally they’ll be healthier at a lower body weight and in fact you know it always shocks me to see if you look at the BMI of many Asian women it’ll look like it’s just perfectly in the middle of the healthy BMI zone but they’re actually overweight and have insulin resistance because they’re carrying too much fat in their liver and pancreas and so
Molly (21:42.452)
Brenda Davis (21:43.812)
we get them to lose weight and it seems weird to be telling someone who’s 115 pounds that they need to lose weight.
But in some cases, that is actually too much for their frame. And you store, you know, this sort of ectopic fat in these vital organs and that drives insulin resistance. So it’s very individual. So while BMI can be a useful tool, it’s not a perfect tool. And there are lots of caveats where BMI is concerned.
Molly (21:58.317)
Hmm.
Molly (22:22.013)
Mm Yeah, very important. So what would be a more like I know that there are certain machines that you can get in and it really calculates things a lot more specific.
Brenda Davis (22:32.453)
Well, your percentage body fat is probably, know, whatever, I mean, there’s some scales you step on, there’s water immersion, there’s, you know, there’s all kinds of decks of scans and all kinds of things that can help you figure out, you know, your level of visceral fat versus subcutaneous fat and so on. And that’s really ideal if you can do something like that.
it will help you to determine whether or not you’re actually overweight because overweight is really over fat. So you’re storing excess fat in your, know, worse is in, you know, is viscerally or, or ectopic fat right in, you know, either around vital organs or within vital organs. And that’s not good news for metabolic health.
And so we, know, subcutaneous fat near the surface of your skin is safer. But we really don’t want to be storing a lot of excess fat. We want a little bit because that will help us to get through illness and things like that. But we don’t want to access to the point that it actually fuels metabolic disease.
Molly (23:53.388)
Mm-hmm. And I really like what you said because I think that so many people can, you know, like overthink this and it’s important stuff, but because most people don’t have these tools to really measure precisely, people don’t often have them accessible. And BMI is sort of limited. You said, you know, think back to a weight where you felt really good and kind of aim for that. And I like that because then it’s sort of like…
Brenda Davis (24:16.645)
Yes.
Molly (24:21.427)
Okay, we can kind of just go from there as a starting point. Okay, so we went over sort of the… I know, my question was about men and women. So these RDAs, is there any distinction between men and women or is it just like across the board, this is the recommendation?
Brenda Davis (24:26.507)
Absolutely.
Brenda Davis (24:37.275)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (24:42.863)
Yeah, no, there’s no distinction between men and women whatsoever.
Molly (24:46.719)
Okay, and let’s talk about women who are perimenopausal, because I hear this a lot. I’ve been hearing this a lot more, that women, once they get into perimenopause and also postmenopause, their needs are going to change. So we were talking about individuals who are 65 and over, right? Talking about like one, aiming for one or 1.2.
Brenda Davis (25:10.297)
Yes.
Molly (25:15.245)
But what about people who are more in that perimenopausal state? Is there any considerations for that?
Brenda Davis (25:22.389)
you know, I would say depending on your level of physical activity
Generally, if you’re an athlete, you’re going 1.2 to 1.6. If you’re an active individual, I think aiming for 1.2 is a good place to be in perimenopause. That would be my recommendation. If you’re reasonably active, if you’re not, maybe one would be enough. I generally think that for a lot of people, 0.8, especially if you’re whole food plant-based, maybe a little on the low side.
And here’s where the men and women come in. It’s 0.8 for a man. It’s 0.8 for a woman. If you’re a teenager, it’s 0.85 for a man or woman. If you’re a child, it’s around one for a boy or a girl. So no difference there whatsoever. The only time it increases is during pregnancy and lactation where it goes up to 1.1 in pregnancy and 1.3 during lactation. So those are recommendations. Now, I think
it’s worth saying that in North America we don’t have separate RDAs for older adults, but there are.
recommendations for older adults in many countries in Australia, many of the Nordic countries, well all of the Nordic countries in Germany. So there are many countries in Europe that have higher recommendations and so there’s a tendency to go towards adding 20-25 % to the RDA for older adults which you know adding
Brenda Davis (27:10.195)
you know
whatever 20 or 25 % for athletes is no big deal at all because they’re eating so many calories. It’s easy for them to meet those needs. But when you’re actually reducing calories relative to younger adults, what it means is you have less room for discretionary calories. So you have less room for the treats. You need to focus more on nutrient dense foods.
Molly (27:19.66)
Yeah.
Molly (27:35.937)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (27:40.37)
And that’s hard because often as we approach our senior years or for older adults, a lot of older adults really like their treats. And so it’s not an easy thing to juggle. And so what I tell a lot of people is to focus a little more.
on the beans and the tofu and soy milk rather than almond milk. All of these more concentrated protein sources need to feature more prominently in the diet of older adults.
Molly (28:17.677)
Wonderful points. I would just want to circle back to this one thing. You said for a reasonably active person, it might be like 1.2. What do you consider reasonably active?
Brenda Davis (28:29.893)
Yes.
Well, I would say for someone that is at least meeting the recommended fitness goals of 150 minutes per week of
of moderate to intense physical activity. And, you know, I myself aim for an hour a day or slightly more depending of dedicated, at least moderate to hard physical activity. And so for someone that’s doing that much activity, I think that’s a reasonable place to be.
Molly (29:06.847)
Okay, yes, I had a question. How do know if you’re an athlete? But if you have to ask, you’re probably not.
Brenda Davis (29:12.811)
Yeah, no, athlete, and I could be wrong, I think of an athlete as someone who’s competing. So they’re training for competition. And, and, and, you know, that means often they’re training for more than much more than an hour a day.
Molly (29:20.141)
Mm-hmm.
Right, yes.
Molly (29:30.059)
Yeah, it’s like they dedicate their life. I mean, I know some people who compete in bodybuilding and that’s their whole life. yeah, okay. okay, I love all those recommendations. I just wanna go over my notes to make sure I didn’t miss anything with the recommendations. Okay. Yep, we did that. Yep, okay. So what I wanna do is I wanna talk a little bit about, so we have a bunch of questions I wanna ask you.
Brenda Davis (29:33.549)
Yes, exactly. Yeah.
Molly (29:59.928)
questions, but I want to talk first about this article that’s been going around. And I emailed it to you because I’ve been having a lot of people in our community send it to me. And the recommendations, the woman links to some studies in this article. And she really talks about the fact that women have been excluded from a lot of the studies that the RDAs are ultimately based on.
And so her recommendations are actually much higher than the RDA. And so I wanted to talk with you about this just to see, is this accurate? Is there weight in this? Do people need to be paying attention to this? Is this information that’s helpful, not helpful, hurtful? Like I would love to know. So can we talk a little bit about that?
Brenda Davis (30:50.705)
Well, the weight of the evidence does not support her recommendations. So the weight of the evidence based on recommendations from leading
protein authorities globally is in the range that I was talking about. To say that people should aim for two or more grams per kilogram per day really exceeds practical intake levels for most people and for plant-based eaters specifically, unless they’re supplementing with a lot of protein powder.
Molly (31:18.765)
Yeah.
Brenda Davis (31:25.233)
And there’s just not clear consensus that, you know, for the general population, there’s any need to do this. If you get to protein intakes that are that high, it’s often consuming animal products, and it means very high intakes of saturated fat. You will be displacing foods that are
a super valuable like fruits and vegetables and whole grains and legumes to get to that level. And in fact, there are in my view, some concerns with going to that level of intake. you’re looking at like for a 60 kilogram woman,
you’re looking at about 120 grams of protein a day if you say two grams, you know, two grams per kilogram. And it’s, it’s just, it’s like I say, it’s not sustainable, but I think it could could actually be harmful. So there are a lot of studies showing
that very high protein intakes beyond 20 % of calories and at two grams per kilogram, you’re looking at about 24 or 25 % of calories from protein.
it increases morbidity and mortality. And I mean that is reduced if the protein comes from plants, but you’re not going to achieve that level of protein intake from whole plant foods. It’s just not possible because you know if you look at whole plant foods they average, so legumes averaged around 20 to 30 percent of calories from protein, grains around 10 to 17.
Brenda Davis (33:17.236)
Some are a little lower like rice. Nuts and seeds are around…
you know, eight to 17 vegetables can be, you know, 20, 30%. Fruits are one to 10%. But if you do a mix of all of those things, you’re not going to be getting to that 25 % level easily. So I just, you know, and that level of protein intake means higher IGF-1 levels, higher methionine intake, which has been associated with a
you know, probably a little higher risk of cancer. And so there are some, you know, some, some concerns about going to that level of protein intake, and especially when it’s absolutely unnecessary.
Molly (34:07.883)
Yeah, and that was my question because I have wondered like, okay, to get to that amount of protein on a whole food plant based diet, like you’re going to have to eat so much food and you’re going to, it’s like, it’s going to be so hard to get that amount in. because we know that
Brenda Davis (34:23.247)
Yeah, unless you’re eating three or 4,000 calories a day, most people eat closer to 2,000. And so it just means a huge percentage of calories from protein. And it’s just, it’s really not achievable unless you’re doing protein powders and such. And that’s not something I would recommend. And it’s just not necessary.
Molly (34:26.999)
rate.
Molly (34:46.581)
Right. Yeah. And I kind of like calculated sort of what I naturally get in a day because I don’t count calories or protein. Like I just eat a wide range of whole plant foods. eat, you know, really hearty meals and, you know, focus on lots of beans and legumes and tofu and veggies and all of this. And so I don’t count stuff, but I was just curious. like, okay, so my recommended is about like 55 grams, I guess, right? 50, 55 grams.
Brenda Davis (34:57.423)
Yes.
Molly (35:15.871)
yesterday or the day before, had according to my calculations around 80 grams and that was like without
Brenda Davis (35:21.873)
which is very typical of someone who’s eating a varied diet and they’re active so they can eat enough calories. They’re not on a 1400 calorie diet or something. Yeah, and I’m a little bit smaller person, you know, but I easily get 60-65 grams a day and my recommended, you know, even if I was going for one gram per kilogram would be 50 grams.
Molly (35:35.084)
Right.
Molly (35:51.521)
Right, so.
Brenda Davis (35:51.794)
So I’m always, you know, I do like to shoot for 1.2 and I’m certainly there and I don’t eat excessively, but I eat pretty generous portions as well.
Molly (35:57.271)
Yeah. Right.
Molly (36:05.771)
Yes, same here. And if I would need to shoot for that up, that recommendation that’s really, really high, I would have needed, I really went, was like, okay, well, what could I eat? I would need to eat another 42 to 60 grams on top of that. And so it was like a half a cup of edamame, a half a cup of lentils, a quarter cup of hemp seeds, a half a cup of broccoli, a quarter cup of oats, and.
Brenda Davis (36:25.713)
Yeah, it’s crazy. Yeah.
Molly (36:33.611)
two more bananas, which would have been an additional almost 700 calories, which would have made my calorie intake for the day way more than I actually need. so, because we know like an excess of animal-based protein is bad news. Is an excess of plant-based protein also, is it negligible or is that also doing harm? And you may touch on that a little bit, but I wanted to circle back.
Brenda Davis (36:38.063)
Yeah.
Brenda Davis (36:43.363)
Yes, exactly.
Brenda Davis (37:00.569)
Yeah, no, and we have less information suggesting that if protein is coming from whole foods, from whole plant foods, that it would have any adverse impact. We do know that it can increase IGF-1 levels a little bit, which is good for the bones, but not so good for cancer risk reduction. So there’s a happy medium there. But generally,
Molly (37:28.29)
Right.
Brenda Davis (37:30.483)
Yeah, I mean it’s just we need we just need to be aware of of that. Yeah
Molly (37:36.779)
Right. Yeah. And so from your point of view and from your expertise, the guidelines that we went over that are in your book that we just talked about, those stand and anything above that is not necessary and potentially harmful. Is that accurate?
Brenda Davis (37:53.33)
Thank
I would say definitely if it’s coming from animal products, it’s potentially harmful. So, and we’ve quantified this. We’ve got all kinds of studies that have quantified the impacts. And there was one study that I think is interesting that looked at high protein intake and mortality. And this was over 6,000 individuals. It was an 18 year followup. And they found that people that were consuming more than 20 % of calories from protein.
she’s recommending probably closer to 25 % that it increased mortality 75 % and it increased cancer and diabetes mortality fourfold so that’s 400 %
Now these associations with animal protein, and this was the case when the protein came from a mix of animal and plant foods, but the associations were either abolished or greatly attenuated when the protein came from plants.
So we don’t see the same kind of negative consequences from plant protein, from high intakes of plant protein as we do from animal protein, but it doesn’t mean that it would have no impact at all. And then some of the other studies that I think are really interesting are, you know, in 2016, Dr. Song from Harvard did the very first study looking at what would happen.
Brenda Davis (39:27.255)
if you took 3 % of calories from animal protein and replaced it with plant protein. Now to put this into perspective,
3 % of calories in a 2000 calorie diet was kind of standard for most people. Men might have a little more, but for women, for sure. If you looked at that 2000 calorie diet, you’d be looking at 60 calories. That’s less than one large egg. It’s about the amount of protein you would find in an ounce of processed meat or
you know, an ounce and a half of meat. So we’re looking at this very small swap of calories from meat or eggs or dairy to beans. And they found that if what you were replacing was processed meat, your risk of death dropped 34%.
If it was eggs, it was 19. If it was unprocessed meat, it was 12. I think it was eight for dairy and something like six for poultry or fish. And then there have been several studies since that have used the same metric and come up with very, very similar results. So we know that plant protein provides a very distinct advantage in that regard over animal.
Molly (40:38.189)
and
Molly (40:58.669)
.
Brenda Davis (40:58.701)
And so that’s that’s worth saying. But generally, we want our diet to first of all, to provide a reasonable balance of all of the macronutrients, protein, fat and carbohydrate to provide sufficient protein, but also to provide sufficient phytochemicals and antioxidants and micronutrients. And so we don’t want to swap out fruits and vegetables
and whole grains and you know all of these wonderful foods for concentrated protein source that provides none of the above. know protein powders and so forth and so we need to be aware a lot of the really concentrated protein sources just don’t come packaged with the good things whole foods come packaged with.
Molly (41:32.587)
Mm-hmm.
Right. Yeah.
Molly (41:50.698)
Yeah, and that’s really important because if you are really going for protein on the much, much higher end, it’s going to be at a cost because we can only eat so much food in a day. And so in order to reach those levels, something else is going to have to be taken out. And if you’re going for high protein, it’s going to be like the fruits and the vegetables, right?
Brenda Davis (42:01.936)
That’s correct.
Molly (42:12.511)
And, that’s, we’re all like the antioxidants and all those micronutrients and all that really good, you know, important stuff for our health and also the fiber as well. Well, a lot of fiber as well. So I think that’s a really good, thing to keep in mind and really thinking about, well, if you are going for super high levels, what, you know, what is the cost of that? And is that, you know, is it necessary? And, and from what it sounds like, it’s like, it’s not necessary. one of the things that I just love about eating a whole food plant based diet is that.
Brenda Davis (42:13.07)
Exactly.
Brenda Davis (42:37.029)
No.
Molly (42:42.813)
I can naturally get what I need and even more protein that I need and also all of the mix of macronutrients by just eating, by just focusing on healthy whole plant foods. And it’s like, I have so much to think about in any given day. Like that’s the last thing I want to think about is like making sure, you know, and I know that there’s, you know, we need to make sure that we are eating really varied and whole plant foods and incorporating beans and tofu and all of that. But once you start eating like this, it kind of comes like, you know,
Brenda Davis (42:52.123)
That’s right, absolutely.
Molly (43:12.429)
It’s second nature. You eat all the good stuff. Yeah.
Brenda Davis (43:14.385)
it does become second nature and it’s, you know, for some people it makes sense to think about what’s my protein source for this meal.
Molly (43:25.089)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (43:25.681)
Because a lot of people will just do the pasta and tomato sauce or you know some sort of fairly low protein combination and adding a little lentils to that sauce or you know these very simple some people would just have a salad with you know some quinoa or something quinoa is
a reasonable protein source but adding a few chickpeas or some tofu cubes will boost that protein content very significantly.
Molly (43:55.17)
Yes, yeah. And that’s an edamame. I was looking in the charts for your different foods and different protein content and edamame is like way through the roof. And how yummy and easy is it to put some edamame beans on your salad or whatever you’re eating or just having it as a little snack. I mean, that’s great. So I’m gonna go over to our private Facebook group and I’m just gonna pull up some of these questions because
Brenda Davis (43:58.8)
Yes, very. Yep.
Through the roof, yes, it’s a very rich source.
Molly (44:23.949)
And I think I’m going to skip the ones that we’ve already covered because I know that we’ve covered a lot of them. So let’s see. OK, so Tracy says.
Brenda Davis (44:30.277)
Yeah.
You know what, can I just say one more thing about protein before we move on? Because I think this is really critical. So for senior women, I have had a number of people come to me saying, you know, I, my skin is…
Molly (44:36.641)
Yes. Yes.
Brenda Davis (44:52.187)
super thin. I’m losing my hair. My skin is breaking and bleeding. I’m tired. I feel weak. I’ve got brittle nails. I’m having all of these issues since I became plant-based. And all of the doctors I talk to, the plant-based doctors say, you don’t have to worry about protein. If you’re eating a variety of whole plant foods, you get plenty of protein.
And in fact, often when I analyze the diets of these women, they’re getting about 40 grams of protein a day. We bring them to 60 or 70 grams and all of these issues resolve. So just be aware that it is possible not to get enough protein, especially as an older woman who is not.
eating a lot of food. And to go from 40 to 70 grams of protein can be as simple as using soy milk instead of almond milk on your cereal, adding a few hemp seeds, having a third of a cup of tofu cubes on your salad, adding a little bit of some sort of extra beans or tofu to your dinner. It is really easy to bring that level.
up and I can remember with one client we just had to make three small changes in her diet that she hardly even noticed and we got her from 40 to 70 just like that so I just wanted to mention that because I think it’s really important to recognize that it is possible not to get enough protein on a plant-based diet.
Molly (46:26.157)
Mm-hmm.
Molly (46:37.803)
Yeah, yeah, that’s a great reminder and I’m really happy that you added that. So thank you very much. it is, yeah, of course, we have to be mindful. It’s like we have to be mindful and we have to be an advocate for ourselves and really making sure that, yeah, we’re doing this in a way that’s best gonna support us. So I think that’s a very good clarification.
So Tracy asks, I like to eat a very light breakfast first thing in the morning, but I want it to be high in protein. Other than vegan protein powder, how can I get a lot of protein in a relatively small amount of food?
Brenda Davis (47:16.849)
This is a great question. think one of the, there’s two really easy ways to do it. A lot of people that like a light breakfast will opt for a smoothie. Smoothies, it’s the easiest thing. Use soy milk, use hemp seeds.
add some frozen peas or some soft tofu. So think protein as you’re making your smoothie. And then if you’re eating solid foods, I think one of the nicest light meals is a chia pudding with some fruit and maybe some seeds sprinkled on top or some walnuts. But in the chia pudding, the way I make my chia pudding is I use soy milk that has eight grams of protein per cup.
and then I add hemp seeds. I, and my sweetener for my chia pudding is prunes, so dried prunes. So I put in, you know, a fair bit of hemp seeds and some dried prunes and some vanilla.
blend it in the blender, add the hemp seeds and you’ve got or add the chia seeds I mean and the chia seeds are an amazing source of calcium as is a fortified soy milk so an unsweetened soy milk and so you’re getting a great dose of calcium you’re getting if you’re eating a reasonable portion you can easily get 15 or 20 grams of protein especially if you’re adding
some nuts and seeds on top as well.
Molly (48:52.717)
Okay, great suggestions. Do you blend your chia seeds when you do that?
Brenda Davis (48:57.777)
No, no, you do not want to chia seeds for a chia pudding because the chia seeds grow and that’s what makes the chia pudding fun and tasty. If you blended them, it would be kind of a funny chia pudding. Now blending them or turning them into a…
Molly (49:03.415)
Okay.
Brenda Davis (49:19.889)
powder is is great just like flax seeds for sprinkling on things but not so much for making a chia pudding
Molly (49:25.997)
Okay, good. Cat asks, why are we so obsessed with protein?
Brenda Davis (49:38.146)
I think protein is, it’s got a halo and it has for a long time because protein is so associated with muscle mass and men want muscles. And so it’s, you know, it’s just always been the nutrient. It’s been the one macronutrient.
Molly (49:41.293)
Mm.
Molly (49:48.478)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (50:02.561)
that hasn’t been blamed for everything that ails us generally. mean, I think Colin Campbell may be a slight exception to that, carbohydrates have been thought of as the evil villain of the diet. Fat in the 80s especially was thought of as the evil villain. a protein, haven’t seen that because in our culture,
Molly (50:08.141)
Great.
Molly (50:11.903)
Brenda Davis (50:32.505)
We associate protein with strength and yeah, making it kind of, yeah, bulletproof, I guess, if you will.
Molly (50:35.617)
Molly (50:41.773)
Yes, yeah, that’s a really good point. Do you notice, like, have you seen throughout your years of doing what you’re doing, have you noticed like waves of times when the protein talk, you know, throughout society kind of spikes and then kind of dips? Because it seems like for me, it seems like we go through these waves of like, okay, people are pretty cool about protein. And then every once in a while, it’ll be like, oh my God, we need a lot more.
freak out about protein and then it kind of gets quiet. that, have you noticed that at all?
Brenda Davis (51:15.437)
absolutely, absolutely. And it is definitely on the upswing right now. There’s a lot of emphasis on protein and shifting guidelines, suggesting higher needs for older individuals and, you know, higher needs for athletes and so forth. So we’ve always valued it, but in the last few years, it’s definitely
Molly (51:20.683)
Yes. Yes.
Brenda Davis (51:43.489)
on the upswing are concerned about protein.
Molly (51:46.612)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Okay. Let’s see. What are the protein needs of postmenopausal women trying to build muscle and lose fat? We covered a little bit, but do you just want to hit on that real quick to recap?
Brenda Davis (51:58.13)
Yeah, and if you’re training, seriously training to try to build muscle, you may want to boost your intake to 1.4 or 1.5, somewhere in there. And you know, for myself, I stick to around 1.2 as a postmenopausal woman, but I’m a pretty muscular woman. And I’ve maintained that muscle. I’m not trying to add muscle. I’ve got enough.
Molly (52:27.061)
Okay, so if you’re trying to add muscle, maybe a little bit more. And if you’re trying to maintain then, and then here’s the question.
Brenda Davis (52:29.489)
Exactly.
But it’s not a matter of just increasing protein intake because just eating protein, just increasing protein intake without the physical stress, the weight bearing exercise will do nothing. That protein will get converted into sugar and stored or used or.
Molly (52:44.437)
Yes.
Raid.
Brenda Davis (52:54.917)
converted to fat and stored. it’s, you know, it’s your protein will go to build muscle if you’re stressing those muscles.
Molly (52:57.237)
Yes. Good. Yeah.
Molly (53:04.653)
Right, so do those weight-bearing exercises. Yeah, and that’s an important thing. Just because you eat more protein doesn’t mean all of a sudden you’ll magically have more muscle. That’s a very good clarifying. So there’s also a lot of talk about the timing of protein intake. So before or after a workout, is that better? Should we be going for a certain amount of protein at each meal? Can you talk about the timing a little bit?
Brenda Davis (53:07.153)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (53:14.657)
Exactly.
Brenda Davis (53:30.537)
I would say, you know, we’ve we’ve debated this topic a little bit over over the years. And, you know, I would say it matters less than some people, you know, think it it might. So what matters more is the total protein intake and that it be
you know be provided at reasonable reasonably consistent times throughout the day. You know a lot of people talk about you know having it within an hour or whatever of your physical exercise and if you’re a really serious bodybuilder or something like that that that might make sense.
But for most people, just meeting your total protein needs by eating protein in each of your three meals is very reasonable.
Molly (54:32.523)
Okay, so this is like per day, as long as you’re meeting your requirements per day, it shouldn’t matter as much as the timing unless you have a very specific, you know, a very hardcore weightlifting kind of routine working out. Okay. Okay, and okay, I’ve seen a lot of recommendations for seniors. I’m 66 to get in more protein. How much is really necessary? I think we covered that very well.
Brenda Davis (54:37.093)
That’s right.
Brenda Davis (54:45.342)
Exactly, exactly.
Brenda Davis (54:57.553)
Yes, you’re the exact same age as I am. So and I go for 1.2 but 1 to 1.2 is probably a really reasonable place to be.
Molly (55:08.045)
to 1.2 per kilogram of body weight a day. And so you just have to do that calculation. So healthy weight. Yes, you’re healthy. If your actual body weight isn’t your healthy body weight, then it’s on your healthy body weight. Great. Okay. What is the best way to nicely let somebody know who…
Brenda Davis (55:11.619)
Exactly.
based on your healthy body weight.
Brenda Davis (55:23.833)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (55:29.585)
you
Molly (55:35.533)
you know, if somebody says like, you need more protein, you aren’t getting enough, you know, who’s really adamant about it, what is a good way to kind of, you know, advocate for yourself and say, hey, no, I’m going to be okay? Like, do you have a certain script that you go to or certain points that you make?
Brenda Davis (55:51.244)
Yeah, so if if.
You know, there are different ways of approaching it, but I’ve always found being respectful is really helpful. know, especially as we’re trying to encourage other people towards a more compassionate, more ecologically sensible way of eating. so making a connection with them is more important than defending ourselves. So one of the things that I would do
I would say that’s so interesting. So could you share with me some of your resources that might suggest that? And would you be okay with me sharing some of my resources with you as well? And maybe we can learn from one another. We always have something to learn from another person.
And so when we go about it in a way that, you know, respects their knowledge, maybe they’ll respect ours as well. And there are so many very high quality summaries of this information and studies that have been done that we could share with them. And they might be open to that. So that’s the way that I would go about it. Just very kindly.
Molly (57:15.213)
I love that answer. And we can definitely put some of those resources in the show notes of this episode for people to take if they want to look at them. That would be helpful if you could help provide us with some of those. Okay, great.
Brenda Davis (57:28.305)
Absolutely. And share the book, Plant-Powered Protein. They may…
Molly (57:32.597)
Yes, yes, this book is fantastic. Such a good book. Okay, so Cassandra says, postmenopause tips for getting enough protein without a surplus of calories. We’ve talked about this a little bit, but do you have any other sort of like protein boosters to help people up a little bit? I mean, we’ve talked about tofu and like, you know, lentils and edamame, soy milk, what others do you have?
Brenda Davis (57:50.234)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (57:57.262)
Yes and and so you know one of the things that I’ve had to do
to maintain my weight and not gain weight as a postmenopausal woman is I’ve had to shift my the makeup of my meals a bit. So I tend to eat fewer starchy foods like grains and starchy vegetables and more non-starchy vegetables and things from the legume family.
So to give you an example, when I cook my cereal, I, my cereal is typically, chemut berries, oat groats, quinoa. So I’ll take an intact grains, but I’ll add a little bit of lentils to them to boost the protein content of that meal.
I always make a chia pudding to have with those intact grains. I, you know, add my little bit of fruit, but I also have a seed mix that goes on top as well. And a dehydrated granola that’s loaded with seeds, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, all of those. I always use unsweetened soy milk as my non-dairy milk. My salads, use on the as the toppings, I like to do full meal
salads, every lunch is a giant salad. But I make my you know, so if I have quinoa or or some sort of
Molly (59:26.999)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (59:35.162)
you know, sweet potato or something, I will have a smaller serving of that and a larger serving of the tofu cubes and the hummus or the edamame or whatever. And then my salad dressing, I would never use a sort of a sugar based dressing. I want my dressing to have more
protein and more nutrients and a little bit of fat so I can absorb the fat soluble nutrients in the salad. So it’ll be a tahini hemp seed dressing and that provides much more protein than a sugar-based or a no fat kind of dressing. And so each meal I think about, you know,
those little boosts that you can get in and I don’t really eat snacks, but if I did, I would focus more on things like apple pieces with nut butter or something like that or the one thing that we have on our counter is nuts in the shell. I might crack open another two if I feel really hungry.
Molly (01:00:40.141)
and
Molly (01:00:50.0)
Okay, great. Yeah, just kind of shifting things a little bit depending on where you’re at in life. I think that that is very sensible and those are all very good suggestions. Okay, so we did talk about this. Catherine said, Dr. Stacey Sims, and that’s the article that we were talking about before, for perimenopausal and menopausal women, daily protein needs increase to about 2 to 0.3 grams per kilogram of
Brenda Davis (01:00:56.709)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (01:01:10.192)
Yes.
Molly (01:01:17.889)
body weight. So it says, as we age, our bodies become more resistant to muscle building effects of protein and exercise requiring higher doses of both. She says, I get so confused because this seems to contrast with what I’ve read on on Molly’s blog and in this group. I do worry a lot about not getting enough without supplementing with plant based protein shakes and making myself susceptible to low bone density and muscle loss.
Brenda Davis (01:01:47.396)
Yes, so I would say that there are not many protein experts, I think, that would agree with her recommendations. They are excessive, they’re very difficult to achieve, and I think for a lot of people that are following those guidelines, they’re doing it with animal-based protein, which
can have significant negative consequences. so, you know, plant-based diets provide, naturally provide a little less protein, but it doesn’t mean we can’t get adequate. And the weight of the evidence is adequate for postmenopausal women is probably closer to 1.2. If you’re very active, if you have sarcopenia, you may want to go up to 1.5 or somewhere in that
range, but I’ve never seen any recommendations that would suggest an intake of 2 2.3. It’s just excessive. so I would, yeah, I would just aim for a more reasonable intake and not worry about it. And I can say for myself that my muscle mass, my strength, my ability
to, you know, do push ups, that kind of stuff has not changed one iota as I’m aging at, you know, 66 years of age, I can still do easily, you know, 25 or 30 or more men’s push ups. So it’s, you know, I’m managing without that kind of ridiculously high intake.
Molly (01:03:29.587)
Nice. Yeah.
Okay. Somebody asked about to get clarity on whether those calculations are for total actual body weight or for lean mass only. We kind of talked about that it was for healthy body weight.
Brenda Davis (01:03:46.959)
Yeah, it’s total, total healthy body weight. Yes.
Molly (01:03:50.392)
Total healthy body weight. Yep, and we’ve covered that. Let’s see, veganism and osteoporosis. Somebody wants to know about that.
Brenda Davis (01:04:02.767)
Yeah, so I will just say that what we know based on the research is there’s no question vegans have a higher risk. And this is, we’ve seen it in Epic Oxford, we’ve seen it in the Adventist Health Study too, the weight of the evidence suggests we’re at higher risk. And there are many reasons for that.
One is that we’re leaner. So we have the lowest body mass index of all people eating a variety of dietary patterns. We’re usually within the healthy BMI range. As a matter of fact, in the Adventist Health Study too, vegans were the only dietary category within the healthy BMI range. Everybody else was above. So we’re leaner, which means we’ll have a little less bone and we’ll be at slightly higher risk because of that.
We also tend to get less vitamin D, less calcium, less protein. Those are all nutrients that are important for maintaining healthy bones. And so, you know, and they’re not the only nutrients we need enough omega-3 fatty acids, we need enough vitamin A, we need enough zinc, we, you know, we need enough B12. know, all of these things, so B12 is another nutrient that may fall short.
So the key is to get a balanced, varied diet and make sure we’re meeting the recommended intakes, especially for calcium and vitamin D, where bone health is concerned. And so in fact, in the Adventist Health Study too, women had a 55 % higher risk of osteoporosis, but they didn’t if they were getting enough calcium and vitamin D.
Molly (01:05:43.425)
Uh-huh.
Brenda Davis (01:05:43.768)
And so, so, you know, those are issues that we need to consider. you know, I live in Canada, so I, there are probably six to eight months of the year that I’m not making enough vitamin D, even if I have exposure to the sun. So it needs to be warm sunshine to make enough vitamin D. Most people do not get enough vitamin D through sunshine. And in a plant based diet, we don’t eat fish, we don’t eat eggs, we’re, you know,
We do sometimes eat, drink fortified non-dairy milk, but we’re not gonna get enough from that. Mushrooms are, if they’re exposed to light, they’re a wonderful source. And as a matter of fact, you can buy mushrooms from the grocery store, put them on a cookie sheet, turn them a bottom side up.
put them out in the sun for 15 minutes or so if it’s a warm day and a serving of those mushrooms will meet your RDA for vitamin D. So that’s a trick because you don’t always know if they’ve been exposed to sunlight because we know mushrooms that have been exposed are higher in vitamin D but you don’t know. So you can do this little trick yourself just when you buy your mushrooms if it’s a warm sunny day that can go outside and that vitamin D will last in those mushrooms.
Molly (01:06:45.848)
interesting. Yeah.
Molly (01:06:50.646)
Hmm.
Brenda Davis (01:07:05.365)
for the week as you’re storing them in the refrigerator. So that’s a good source. But for most people, you’re not going to be eating that serving of mushrooms every single day necessarily. It makes sense to take a supplement and I just take a thousand I use. Some people need two. Some people need even more to get their blood levels to where they need to be. But
Molly (01:07:27.628)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (01:07:29.393)
All of that having been said, if you eat enough protein, enough calcium, enough vitamin D, enough of all the other nutrients.
It’s still not enough to protect your bones unless you’re telling your bones that they’ve got to stay strong. You need to be doing weight bearing exercise. It’s like it’s a message to your bones to stay strong. so, yeah, we need to be, know, vegans are at lower risk for heart disease. They’re lower risk for cancer. They’re lower risk for cataracts, lower risk for diabetes, you know, and it goes on and on and on. Lower risk for all.
almost all of the chronic degenerative diseases but that is not the case for osteoporosis so we need to be vigilant when it comes to bone health.
Molly (01:08:14.829)
and
Molly (01:08:18.795)
Okay, and you talked about that in this book too, and you explain it really well and like kind of the mechanism by which building muscle helps bone be strong. So again, for more, pick up this book. Wonderful. Okay, so we get a lot of questions in the group about using protein powders in various ways and asking for recommendations on best ones.
Brenda Davis (01:08:21.37)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (01:08:28.473)
Yes.
Thank you, Molly.
Molly (01:08:41.527)
So I just wanna talk to you about protein powder. Another question was, is pea protein isolate powder better for you than regular protein powder with added ingredients? So let’s talk about that a little bit.
Brenda Davis (01:08:51.853)
Yeah, so where protein powders are concerned, I would say there are several issues that you want to consider. Generally, when you get a mix of different protein sources in the powder, it’s better because you’re getting a better mix of essential amino acids. And some proteins like potato protein, for example.
has an unbelievable amino acid profile. It’s shocking. Potatoes are pretty low in protein, but when you extract the protein and concentrate it, it’s really decent. And so some of these mixed protein powders are actually quite good. Now, what you need to be cautious of is protein powders often are contaminated with heavy metals and other contaminants that are not.
stuff you want to be consuming too much of and if you’re using it on a daily basis you can go to the Clean Label Project, you can look for third-party certification, you can do those kinds of things to try to select a good quality protein powder.
then the other thing is to look at the ingredient list. Are there added preservatives and sugars and artificial sweeteners and all of that garbage? You don’t want that stuff.
You want it to be a really clean protein powder. Certainly, hemp protein or pea protein are very decent options and can be used. I never used a protein powder and I don’t find it necessary. My diet is really good. But there are some individuals who are eating a low number of calories and find it
Brenda Davis (01:10:44.333)
Excuse me, really difficult to meet the recommended intakes. And so for those individuals adding a little protein powder to their smoothie is really helpful. And if that’s you, it’s all good. Just try to find one that is a good quality product. And there are online
Molly (01:10:55.255)
Mm-hmm.
Molly (01:11:06.295)
Okay.
Brenda Davis (01:11:11.393)
There are some excellent summaries of that.
Molly (01:11:17.461)
Okay, and maybe we can share that in the show notes as well so people can go and kind of check that out. I listened to a talk last Sunday by Dr. Clapper and it was a really great talk and he was talking about protein powder and he kind of had the same general, he shared the same general sentiments that you did about it, but he said to watch out for the amount that you’re adding in one dose because he said that it…
Brenda Davis (01:11:23.686)
Yeah.
Molly (01:11:45.037)
could affect the liver if you’re getting too much protein powder at once.
Brenda Davis (01:11:49.968)
Yes, so because it’s so concentrated and your body has to process it, you don’t want to be having massive amounts all at once. Most of the time you’re doing one scoop, they call it.
and it might have 20 grams or something like that, which is absolutely fine. But if you’re dosing it at a very high level, that’s not a good idea. if you are wanting to do it more than once a day, most people don’t need that. You know, once a day for most individuals would be plenty.
Molly (01:12:09.837)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (01:12:27.917)
Unless you’re a really serious competitive bodybuilder where you’re aiming for 1.62 grams of protein per kilogram body weight, then you may be going a little higher. But I find it easy enough to get protein up in a smoothie easily with hemp seeds, peas, soft tofu, soy milk, without the need for any protein powder.
Molly (01:12:37.005)
Mm-hmm.
Molly (01:12:55.179)
Yeah, that’s what I do as well. And I think that’s what he said too, like 20 grams is good, but you might not wanna do more than that. Okay, let’s see. Okay, we covered this. how many grams of protein can I utilize at any time? For example, if I eat a meal containing 50 grams of protein, can my body absorb that all at once?
Brenda Davis (01:12:58.001)
Yeah.
Brenda Davis (01:13:01.391)
Yeah. Yeah.
Brenda Davis (01:13:17.293)
that’s an interesting question. I’m not sure if I can answer that accurately. It will depend on the individual. It will depend on your size. It will depend on how much protein your body actually needs at that moment. But generally, most of the research I’ve seen suggests around 30 grams is, you know, sort of where you land for a meal.
that you can utilize efficiently. But I’m guessing a little bit because it would be different for different people. But I think for most people aiming for 20, 25 grams per meal is very reasonable, especially for women. For men, it might be a little bit higher than that if they’re a larger person.
Molly (01:13:53.197)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (01:14:09.745)
But generally, we’re in the range of 20 to 30 grams for most of us.
Molly (01:14:14.539)
Okay, great, great question. okay, this was the last question. How do you get enough protein if you are allergic to soy and pea protein? I mean, we’ve talked about many different sources, but if you’re allergic to soy and pea protein, it’s gonna need to be a lot of different legumes, I would imagine, and hemp seeds as well.
Brenda Davis (01:14:36.017)
Yes, so soy is probably one of the best sources of protein in the plant-based diet. It’s pretty concentrated at very high quality and it’s fun. You can do so much with tofu and edamame and so on. So it’s such a bummer if you’re allergic to it. But if you are, there are what?
Molly (01:14:56.787)
Yes.
Brenda Davis (01:15:02.065)
14,000 kinds of legumes, probably 20 or so of which are a part of the regular diet. And so you don’t need soy, don’t, you know, you don’t need, what was the other thing they were allergic to? Pea protein, you don’t need soy, you don’t need pea protein to get enough protein. It’s, you know, legumes, one of the things you can do if you want to boost the protein, you can get
Molly (01:15:17.537)
pea protein.
Brenda Davis (01:15:31.171)
almond plus protein milk, which will have some sort of, it’s often pea. So what you can do is you can take your almond milk and blend it with hemp seeds and then pour it back into the container and boost your protein to about the same as what you would get from soy milk. And that’s a nice way of doing it. And it’s yummy. It makes it thick and creamy and it’s delicious. And then, know, pumpkin seeds are a very good source of protein.
Molly (01:15:40.813)
Mm-mm.
Brenda Davis (01:16:01.038)
Nuts tend to be a little on the lower side compared to seeds. Seeds are especially, but especially hemp and pumpkin seeds. So between all of the other legumes, if you’re not allergic to gluten, seitan is actually a pretty good source and it’s actually fairly high in branch chain amino acids, which is good for muscle building like leucine. It’s one of the best sources. So, you know, it’s a little lower in…
in lysine but but if you’re eating you know legumes as well you’re going to get plenty of that so so certainly the you can add in a bit of seitan as a sort of more concentrated protein source if you like
Molly (01:16:42.303)
Mm-hmm. I would say get a Order a bunch of beans from Rancho Gordo. They have the best the best beans and always so many fun beans to choose from
Brenda Davis (01:16:51.233)
yeah, isn’t that fun when you discover a bean you’ve never even seen before and they’re so pretty and yeah and the colors and it’s just they’re just so awesome or if you grow food. I remember growing scarlet runner beans and they’re just so pretty. So yeah, it can be lots of fun.
Molly (01:16:56.257)
I love it.
Molly (01:17:01.453)
Yeah.
Molly (01:17:07.539)
That’s so cool. Yeah. And we didn’t even get into leucine. That was like a very interesting part in this book as well. And that’s very important. Can we just have that be the last thing before we wrap up? Just talking about leucine and the importance and some good sources.
Brenda Davis (01:17:21.691)
Sure.
Brenda Davis (01:17:25.027)
Yeah, so leucine is, you know, one of the amino acids that’s especially important as we get older and for retaining and building muscle.
And so as I mentioned, again legumes, soy, but gluten is a really rich source. So those are key. And then seeds again, it’s all, regardless of what amino acid you’re talking about, the main concentrated sources in a plant-based diet are the legume kingdom and the nut and seed kingdom are good sources as well.
Molly (01:18:04.747)
Okay, excellent. Well, this I feel like this was a little mini masterclass in plant based protein. And so I really want to thank you for coming on and for sharing your knowledge and your expertise. I feel like I have a lot more. Well, I feel like kind of what I know I can be confident of what I know is kind of like, good, good information. And I don’t have to update my thinking too much about recommendations and stuff like that. So I really I thank you for
for clearing some of this stuff up and just, yeah, having a great conversation.
Brenda Davis (01:18:35.267)
Well, it’s my pleasure and so nice to be with you and to see you again. yeah, I hope it’s helpful to everyone. you know, just don’t lose too much sleepover. Just think about, you know, what is my source of protein with this meal? Are there little ways that I can boost my protein intake, switching from almond to soy milk or adding some hemp seeds to my almond milk and blending it or whatever.
Molly (01:19:02.733)
Mm-hmm.
Brenda Davis (01:19:03.095)
adding some edamame to my salad, it’s really pretty easy to boost your protein intake in a plant-based diet.
Molly (01:19:12.267)
Yeah, and the only thing is what you’re gonna find is the more whole plant foods you’re gonna eat, the more you’re crowding out the processed kind of foods that are not so good for you. And so that’s not a bad thing. And if that means like, okay, I need to make sure that every meal counts and making sure that I’m getting enough protein at every meal and enough throughout the day, then that just might mean getting rid of some of the stuff in the diet that’s not really helping you anyway. So, yeah.
Brenda Davis (01:19:23.641)
No, no.
Brenda Davis (01:19:33.199)
That’s right.
Brenda Davis (01:19:37.732)
Yeah, exactly. Well said. Well, you too, Molly, have a great evening. What time is it? are are you? okay. So yeah, so it’s almost five here. Yeah. you lucky duck. I was in Hawaii recently as well.
Molly (01:19:40.339)
Okay, well, thank you so much Brenda Davis. I always like talking with you. Have a beautiful day
Molly (01:19:49.037)
Thank you. I’m in Hawaii and it’s like one here. So it’s lunchtime. Aha. Okay.
yeah, we’re in Hawaii.
Brenda Davis (01:20:03.321)
with my mom, were speaking, I was speaking for the vegan society. That was on Oahu. Yeah.
Molly (01:20:09.269)
What island were you on? yes, no wonder I didn’t, if I would have known, I would have just flown over. It’s a quick flight. Yeah, we had Dr. Clapper here last weekend. So I know that they have some really good speakers, but it’s great that you got to come here with you. So your mom is still alive.
Brenda Davis (01:20:21.516)
isn’t that wonderful?
Yeah, my mom’s 87 and she looks 70 at the most. Mostly she eats fish sometimes, but she’s mostly plant based and she does, you know, fitness every day, walks every day. She does yoga. does a rope, you know, robot classes, water exercises, you name it. Yeah, she’s amazing.
Molly (01:20:28.097)
Nice.
Molly (01:20:33.397)
And is she plant-based? Mostly.
Molly (01:20:49.774)
That’s so inspiring. My mom is 81. She’s going to be 82 this year. And same for her. She’s keeping active and strong. Yeah, for sure. OK, well, keep doing the good work, And I will hopefully talk to you again soon. Yeah, bye.
Brenda Davis (01:20:57.379)
Wow, that’s so inspiring. So inspiring.
Thank you so much. Thanks, Molly. You bet. Take care.
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