161: How Industry Influence Shapes U.S. Dietary Guidelines + Why Low-Fat WFPB Still Wins

The 2025 Dietary Guidelines have settled in, but are they helping people eat healthier?

In this episode, I sit down with registered dietitian and plant-based nutrition expert Dr. Anna Herby to unpack what’s changed, who’s influencing those changes, and what it all means for your plate.

*Need help eating more plants combined with coaching, guidelines, and a helpful, private community? Check out Drop It Club and save $50 off your enrollment fee with the coupon code DROPIT2026 (all caps). Summer enrollment closes July 15th, 2026!

We talk about why fiber deserves way more attention than protein, how food industry interests can shape nutrition policy, and why a whole-food plant-based diet continues to stand on solid scientific ground.

If you’ve ever wondered whether nutrition advice is driven by science or something else, this conversation will help you cut through the noise.

In this episode, we talk about:

• How the food industry’s influence shapes nutrition recommendations
• Why protein gets all the attention while fiber is often overlooked
• What the research really says about saturated fat and long-term health
• How whole plant foods naturally provide the nutrients your body needs
• Why a low-fat, whole-food plant-based diet is the way to go
• Why social media nutrition trends aren’t always backed by evidence
• Simple ways to make food choices based on science instead of hype

Helpful links:

• 2025 Dietary Guidelines Advisory Committee Report (the original report from the committee)
• Uncompromised Dietary Guidelines (guidelines created by CSPI based on this report)
• Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine (PCRM)
• NutritionFacts.org with Dr. Michael Greger
• RealFood.gov Scientific Rationale Report
• PCRM on weight loss and a plant-based diet
• Drop It Club: Plant-Powered Weight Loss
• Clean Food Dirty Girl Meal Plan Club

About our guest

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE, Nutrition Education Specialist, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDCES, is the nutrition education specialist for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, a Washington, D.C.-based nonprofit organization dedicated to promoting preventive medicine, especially better nutrition, and higher standards in research. Her work focuses on educating healthcare professionals and the general public on the role of nutrition in preventing, managing, and reversing chronic disease. Prior to joining the Physicians Committee, she worked as a clinical dietitian and Food for Life instructor at Adventist Health Howard Memorial Hospital in Willits, Calif. Dr. Herby received her Master of Science in nutrition from Bastyr University in Seattle and went on to earn a Doctor of Health Sciences from the University of Bridgeport.

Testimonial, auto-generated, may have errors

Cleaned Transcript: Molly Patrick and Anna Herby

Molly Patrick (00:16) Hey there, and thank you for listening to this episode of the Clean Food Dirty Girl podcast. I have a very special guest with us today, and this is going to be a really important informational conversation. I have Dr. Anna Herby with me today. She works at PCRM, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, and a lot of our community and our listeners are really familiar with that awesome organization. You have a doctorate in health sciences, you are a registered dietitian, and you’re a certified diabetes educator. You have a lot of knowledge about nutrition and plant-based nutrition; this is your wheelhouse. I am really excited to talk with you today specifically about the updated dietary guidelines so that we can work this out, talk through this, and see what we can make of it. Thank you for joining me today and welcome to the show.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (01:20) Yeah, thank you, Molly. It’s really great to be here with you. I’m excited to get into it.

Molly Patrick (01:24) All right, so let’s dive in. Can you briefly talk about—or maybe not so briefly—what changed? The guidelines recently changed. It’s February 17th as we’re recording this, so it’s been about a month since the updated guidelines came out. Can you speak a little bit about what changed?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (01:50) Yeah, there are a lot of changes, so I’m glad you asked. I think maybe one of the most important changes is the way these guidelines were developed. The whole process is very different from what we’ve seen in the past. Previously, for every iteration of the dietary guidelines, the government put together a dietary guidelines advisory committee. It was very transparent: you get nominated, it’s all very public, the public has input on their work, and they meet publicly. The meetings have even been streamed on Zoom so you can live stream them.

This took place in 2023 and 2024. We had a really good dietary guidelines advisory committee. They were very balanced and they came out with a report. They looked at all the evidence and put in a lot of work as volunteers. They released the dietary guidelines advisory committee report at the end of 2024 for the 2025 guidelines. What it said included a lot of good things. One of those things was to move legumes—beans, peas, and lentils—to the top of the protein group and to have water as your main beverage instead of that little dairy cup.

Among other things, the administration changed, as we know, and this report was kind of just set aside and not taken into account. They put together a new committee, and this was all behind closed doors. No one really knew what was happening or who the committee was. This committee came up with new guidelines, and that is what we’re seeing now—this new report that came out without much public input.

We saw that the new committee had a lot of influence from the dairy, beef, and meat industries, along with the low-carb industry. That was very different—kind of this new “surprise, we have something new”—and it’s not very similar to the original dietary guidelines advisory committee’s report. Because of that, we’re seeing a lot of focus on meat and full-fat dairy, and a push toward a low-carb dietary pattern, which is confusing because that’s not what we’ve been seeing previously. It’s not necessarily what the science is pointing toward.

Then we also see a lot of contradictions. Right? They say to limit your saturated fat to 10% of total calories and then suggest eating a lot of cheese and red meat. You can’t do both. Then we have whole grains: they talk about how good whole grains are, yet they’re at the bottom of this food pyramid in the smallest section, implying you should eat less of them. There’s a lot of confusion. I think that’s one of the main takeaways: it’s confusing, it was made in a different way than we’re used to seeing, and it’s not as rooted in balanced evidence as we would like it to be.

Molly Patrick (04:53) Okay, yeah. For people who are just seeing this and don’t have that context, they probably take it at face value and assume something has changed in the science to back up these new guidelines, but that’s not necessarily the case with these.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (05:27) That’s correct. We still have the same science. We still know that eating a lot of red meat and a lot of dairy is going to set you up for heart disease, among other problems. That hasn’t changed.

Molly Patrick (05:40) Okay, so that report from the balanced advisory committee—does that report still exist somewhere? Is that something that the public can see?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (05:51) Yes, absolutely. It does exist. It’s long, but they also have a little summary showing their main points. In fact, there’s another organization, the Center for Science in the Public Interest. They took that report and created guidelines out of it—essentially the dietary guidelines that would have come from that report—and that’s available for the public as well. It’s a really great resource.

Molly Patrick (06:16) Okay, we’ll definitely link that in the show notes so people can check it out. I’m sure it looks a lot different than what actually came out. Let’s talk about these contradictions. What the guidelines are saying is no more than 10% of saturated fat per day. Is that right?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (06:30) Exactly, 10% of your total calories. If you’re on a standard 2,000-calorie diet, that’s about 200 calories, or roughly 22 grams of saturated fat, which is not very much per day. You’d want to aim for even lower than that.

Molly Patrick (06:47) Okay, and yet at the very top of the pyramid, meat is front and center—red meat especially—along with dairy. I’m wondering, if someone prioritized meat and dairy for every meal, roughly how much saturated fat might that be?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (07:37) You wouldn’t be able to stay under that 10% goal. For just dairy alone, the guidelines tell us to focus on full-fat products. If you have three servings of regular cheese, that would probably put you at your limit of 22 grams for the day. Then what about the rest of your diet? If you’re including red meat and eggs, there’s just no way you’re going to meet that 10% limit.

Molly Patrick (08:15) Yeah, and on the pyramid itself, you don’t see any percentages; you’re just looking at that visual. I went to the realfood.gov website where this is, and it’s not really clear. Let’s talk about saturated fat really quick and why it’s important to consider when consuming it.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (08:58) Saturated fat is found mostly in animal products, but also in coconut oil and palm oil. If you think about coconut oil or butter or beef tallow, those things are hard at room temperature. That’s how you know it’s a saturated fat. It does also stiffen your arteries—it becomes hard in your body in a different way—accumulating inside your blood vessels along with cholesterol. It can cause plaques, and then your whole vascular system is compromised, which could lead to heart attacks or strokes.

So, we worry about cardiovascular disease. Then there’s also diabetes. We know now it is not necessarily caused by eating too much sugar, as many people believe, but is actually caused by eating a lot of fat. That fat blocks your insulin from working inside your cells. When the sugar doesn’t get into your cells, you’re at risk for type 2 diabetes. We’re also seeing a link between saturated fat and things like dementia and Alzheimer’s disease because that blood flow slows down. If you’re getting less oxygen and fewer nutrients to your brain, it will eventually be compromised.

Then there are simply the calories. Eating a lot of fat provides twice as many calories as carbohydrates or protein, so it’s not a good strategy for weight management either.

Molly Patrick (10:43) [Announcement for Drop It Club…]

Molly Patrick (12:41) So, looking at protein for a minute, I know the protein recommendations went up, and yet I don’t think there are beans or legumes clearly on this pyramid. Were they hidden there?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (13:03) I think they’re really small. They might be at the bottom as a side note, but you’re right, they’re really small.

Molly Patrick (13:11) Okay, so for plant-based folks, we get our protein from plant-based sources, and beans and legumes are one of the best sources. Let’s talk about the increase in the protein guidelines. What changed there?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (13:31) First, it’s important to know about the RDA (Recommended Dietary Allowance). That recommendation is 0.8 to 1.0 grams per kilogram of body weight per day. That is not set in the dietary guidelines; that’s another organization using research on nitrogen balance to prevent protein deficiencies. That number still stands.

The dietary guidelines, however, came out with a different recommendation: 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kilogram of body weight per day—almost double the RDA. If you look into their scientific rationale, they looked at research on athletes and weight loss. In the weight loss studies, people were under-eating calories. When you do that, you’re at risk for under-eating protein. They found that if you double down on protein while reducing calories, you can preserve muscle mass.

But that’s not something you’d necessarily generalize to the whole population. It worked for that small group, but we can’t necessarily say doubling protein intake will benefit everyone in the U.S.

Molly Patrick (15:55) And the RDA hasn’t changed?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (15:58) Right, the number of grams you need to not be deficient remains the same.

Molly Patrick (16:05) Is the RDA set by another government branch or an independent group?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (16:19) I believe it’s the Institute of Medicine or another organization within the government that does the research to set the RDA.

Molly Patrick (16:29) That’s interesting; I thought they were all lumped together. If you’re on social media, even for a minute, you’ll see people talking about high protein. It’s making its way into our daily lives—everything in the grocery store is labeled “high protein” now.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (17:24) Yeah, protein water and all that. People think eating more protein will solve everything, but that’s just not the answer.

Molly Patrick (17:42) I hear a lot of people saying if you’re in your late 40s or 50s and going through perimenopause, it’s really important to amp up your protein. Even plant-based people ask me how they can get more protein. Can you talk about that for a moment?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (18:50) If you are shifting your diet and you don’t eat enough, then you’re likely not to eat enough protein. Ideally, we want you to be eating enough overall calories, which naturally helps meet your protein needs. If you are doing a lot of resistance training or for older adults, it can be helpful to bump it up a little bit to 1.0 or 1.2 grams. We can focus on tofu, beans, quinoa, and nuts and seeds. Focusing on tempeh, soybeans, and soy milk at every meal should help you reach those goals. Working with a dietitian can also be really helpful for balancing everything in a healthy way.

Molly Patrick (20:01) The whole grain section on this pyramid is at the bottom, so it seems like they’re saying limit your whole grains, even though the whole grain guidelines didn’t change. Can you speak on that?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (20:34) The grains are confusing as well. They talk about fiber in the context of whole grains, which is great. They say to eat two to four servings of grains as whole grains, but then it’s not necessarily reflected in the food pyramid—another point of confusion.

One reason past guidelines haven’t recommended 100% whole grains is because refined grains like white flour are fortified with folic acid, which is important for preventing birth defects. If you choose to avoid refined grains, you need to be more conscious of getting folate through foods like beans and leafy greens.

Molly Patrick (22:22) Interesting. So if you aren’t eating processed refined grains, where do you get folate?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (22:36) The answer to almost every nutrient question is beans and leafy green vegetables. Whole grains have some as well, but beans and greens are the staples of a whole food plant-based diet.

Molly Patrick (23:22) It sounds like fiber wasn’t really considered much in this iteration.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (23:26) It was heavily considered in the 2024 Advisory Report, which is why they recommended moving plant protein to the top. As a nation, we never meet our fiber goal. It was mentioned in the new version, but then they go on to emphasize animal protein and dairy, which just don’t have fiber. If we’re thinking about doubling our protein intake for health reasons, we should really be thinking about doubling our fiber intake because that is what the science shows we are lacking.

Molly Patrick (25:44) Let’s talk about why fiber is so important.

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (25:52) High-fiber food fills you up faster and more effectively. Fiber is what holds up the plant; you don’t digest it, so it doesn’t provide calories, but it takes up space in your stomach. You get full faster than if you ate a low-fiber meal. This makes it easier to lose weight without counting calories or measuring portions.

Fiber also slows down digestion, which balances blood sugar. Even eating beans at lunch can help your blood sugar after dinner because of the long-term effect of the fiber. Lastly, it pulls cholesterol, toxins, and extra hormones out of your body.

Molly Patrick (28:41) I visualize it like Velcro sticking to everything as it goes down. What about gut health and the microbiome?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (28:51) Fiber acts as a prebiotic, feeding the healthy gut bacteria (probiotics) in your colon. When your gut bacteria is happy and eating fiber, it releases short-chain fatty acids. These compounds tell your brain you’re full and tell the liver to produce less cholesterol. They are really our best friends when it comes to health.

Molly Patrick (30:41) It seems like the new guidelines are a culmination of all the fad things on the internet right now, like high protein and low-carb diets. Why isn’t a whole food plant-based diet more front and center in the public eye?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (33:07) It does seem like they scrolled social media and put what they found into the guidelines. But dietary guidelines are really meant for public programs like SNAP and school lunches; most individuals don’t follow them anyway. Most people get their information on social media. We are getting more traction there through work that counteracts fad diets with science-backed information.

In terms of public policy, there is room for improvement. We are seeing a lot of influence from the dairy and meat industries—they have people on the committee writing the guidelines. The science, however, isn’t changing. It shows we need more fiber and more plant foods.

Molly Patrick (35:47) One danger is that influencers use these guidelines to reinforce their messages—the “carnivore bro” can now say his diet is backed by the government. A lot of people aren’t reading scientific papers or fact-checking. If someone wants to learn more, what are some good resources?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (38:01) Realfood.gov makes it hard to find the references. You have to find the PDF of their scientific rationale report, and many studies in there are cherry-picked or use poor methodology. For simplified references, I recommend pcrm.org. We have information by health topic and provide a “breaking medical news” section with short summaries. I’m sure your listeners are also familiar with nutritionfacts.org, where Dr. Michael Greger does easy-to-understand videos.

Molly Patrick (40:08) If you were to create your own guidelines or pyramid, what would it look like?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (40:54) I don’t think the pyramid is the right shape. At PCRM, we use the “Power Plate.” You divide your plate into four quarters: fruits, vegetables, legumes, and whole grains. We say “legumes” instead of “protein” because protein is a nutrient, not a food group.

Molly Patrick (43:12) That visual is so much easier. Any final thoughts on the importance of nutrition?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (43:22) Some people might be concerned because the dietary guidelines list 12 nutrients you could supposedly be deficient in on a vegan diet. That’s just not true. That committee took a vegetarian pattern and removed eggs and dairy without replacing them with anything. A real vegan diet adds beans and soy products to meet calorie and nutrient goals. You just need a B12 supplement.

Molly Patrick (46:16) It sounded like a cautionary tale! I understand the advisors picked for this new committee had ties to the meat and dairy industries. Is that common?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (47:55) It was common before the 2000 guidelines. The Physicians Committee actually sued successfully to make committees more balanced and transparent. Things were getting better until this new committee, which set us back 20 years. Out of nine people, at least eight have ties to the low-carb, beef, or dairy industries.

Molly Patrick (49:54) Can PCRM sue again to get it changed?

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (50:07) Technically, yes. We filed an official complaint, but it’s a slow process. Fingers crossed, but for now, we are focusing on getting the right information out there so people aren’t confused.

Molly Patrick (51:59) Thank you, Dr. Herby. It takes a village to get the practical tools into people’s hands. I appreciate your expertise and your time today!

Anna Herby, DHSc, RD, CDE (52:50) Thanks for having me, Molly. It’s been fun.